We talk to historian and author Marjolein van Pagee, and singer and activist Danny Samar about the Dutch role in global racism, imperialism and colonialism.
Hi Karim and Peter, Thank for for the most stimulating and insightful debate on the issue of racism. As a son of a Muslim Pakistani father and white Christian mother in England, I can really relate to what you have to say and the intellectual underpinnings with which you support your arguments. You also have an exceptional selection of guests that provide a breath of fresh from the well know white faces plastered over YouTube. Best Regards
There’s a provincialist element to race interaction in the U.S., and I don’t feel like I can give a fair comparison of racism here and what the Netherlands racial minorities must endure.
There’s a broad umbrella of anti-intellectualism here that shrouds the whole society, and this absolutely colors racism in America. I have known dozens of black students and coworkers who acknowledge the humanist underpinnings of socialist political philosophy, but don’t believe their roots and familial ties will accommodate the efficacy of the dogma.
My bias when I see an informed discussion about historic colonialism, and reactionary social norms, makes my cynicism rise. If lazy whites anywhere cannot or will not acknowledge the institutional biases and preferences that advantage them at the expense of many of their neighbors, I doubt that reasoned, impassioned argument will succeed in changing their thinking.
I am more encouraged by the mobilized global south, and the determination that they will have their sovereignty respected, as a forceful argument for westerners to get out of their warped minds.
I’m a big believer that no good can come of trying to legislate morality, and the Zionist effort to elevate criticism of Israel to the level of a crime, will fail miserably. But that whole charade is sure to cause pain and bloodshed, and not work to bring people closer together.
I was hoping to learn the Chinese word for a fake leftist that Peter mentioned but I couldn’t understand, even upon replaying the stream.
While I agree with most of the comments made in the discussion, I thought the Ruud Gullit example was pathetic.
The football supporters with blackened faces and the wigs were clearly NOT expressing any racist sentiment, on the contrary, they expressed their solidarity with their football hero.
Using this as a good example is merely an expression of Danny's wokism, and shows he has gone overboard with his sensitivity to racism.
In my opinion, this response is problematic. And let me explain to you why. It is not up to you, or anyone for that matter, to tell a person of color what they should, or should not experience as racism. The life experience of people like Danny, or myself, or any other person classified as "the other" in white spaces is very different than yours, and the effects of these things Danny classifies as racism is very different for him than for you.
You can reflect on that, try to be open and think "maybe by him these things are experienced very differently than by me", or you can still respectfully disagree, that is fine too. But to deem it "pathetic" and "woke" is something that I do not think will help us forward or build solidarity.
I agree that the term "pathetic" is misplaced because it places a judgment on his opinion, which I have no right to do. I apologize.
BTW, for the record, by ridiculing Gullit's not seeing as racist those faces painted black and the wigs, Danny put a judgment on Gullit in a similar fashion as my use of "pathetic", yet you seem to be OK with that.
I disagree that the term "woke" is misplaced. If I tell someone their stance is e.g. conservative or communist, they might not agree but they don't get upset about it. Why is it that "woke" is not allowed?
"The life experience of people like Danny, or myself, or any other person classified as "the other" in white spaces is very different than yours, and the effects of these things Danny classifies as racism is very different for him than for you."
, I suspected you would tell me something like that. While I agree that he sees and experiences racism differently than I do, it does not mean I cannot really assess racism, as you seem to imply.
You did not live through WW2 nor through the Algerian war of independence, and I am pretty sure you never experienced what the Gazans have been going through, yet you are perfectly able to assess the racist aspects of those events.
I do agree that I will never be able to really feel how Danny experiences racism, but that does not mean I have to agree with him.
You imply that his assessment of racism is superior to mine AND he is allowed to put a judgment on the racism assessment other people of color: to me that in and of itself is bigoted too, reverse racist.
I know that for people growing up in the toxic pool of the Netherlands it is hard to see the issue with white people doing blackface, as this has been normalized for ages. (In my opinion it is problematic in all cases.) That Ruud Gullit was okay with it, does not make it less racist. The 5 December Black Pete tradition shows how defensive we get when we are being called out on our racism. The white ego is like an angry child that kicks and screams, we cannot handle any criticism!
I have to admit, it is smart how all criticism of colonial/racist mentalities are now being dismissed as 'woke', as if anti-racism is government-propaganda coming from the political 'left'. Woke became the perfect discussion stopper to avoid any serious discussion on racism.
What people forget is that there is an important distinction between actual anti-racism and the fake hijacked version of 'diversity' that the system produces. So @ngungu don't put @kilianjacobsamar (Danny) in the same box as the fake version of the political left! So-called leftists within Western governments, universities and institution are just white liberal progressives who actually function as the gatekeepers of the system. The real historical left (communism/socialism) has been sidelined and silenced a long time ago.
Yeah, indeed, as it was originally used it was a functional concept! I find it quite funny how people from the so-called corona-critical movement in the Netherlands refer to themselves in an equal manner as 'wakker' (awake). They claim to understand how corrupt the system is, yet when it comes to racism, they are still in a very, very deep sleep!
Ruud Gullit was okay with it because he realized those supporters did not mean it in a racist way but as a way to show their support, feeling 1 with him – remember "Je suis Charlie"?
If those supporters were racist, in addition to their black faces and the wigs, they would have expressed their racism in other ways too: did those guys do that?
My point is that anti-racism is and will always have to remain an essential, good part of a healthy society. Unfortunately, since Western society has been corrupted and concepts turned upside down (good = bad, slavery = freedom, genocide = normal, etc.), reality has become obfuscated, as a result of which anti-racism sometimes goes too far. There are those who see racism in everything à la "a Red under every bed".
Consider this: is anti-israelism/anti-zionism the same as anti-Jew racism? Of course not, but most Jews claim it is and thus they see anti-Jew racism everywhere.
This sums it up pretty much: "There are those who see racism in everything". Such a typical response! As if it is so normal and acceptable to have a serious discussion on racism in the Netherlands! As Danny said, they will make your life very difficult if you connect the dots and try to put racism on the table here. Again, I think you are confused by the fake-version of how white liberals pretend to do 'diversity', while in fact they react equally childish like right-wingers when you call them out on their racism.
In other words, you decide/Danny decides for Gullit how he should see the "racism" of the black faces and wigs. I note here that you have not answered my question about whether those guys expressed their racism in other ways, such as shouting racist slogans dagainst him during the game.
I also note that you sidestep the rest of my comment.
Nope, I am very aware of about racism, the real version that is, and I am also aware of the over-the-top racism awareness for which I mentioned the Jews as an example. In addition, their own real racism against and genocide of the Palestinians is a taboo subject that is now labelled as "anti-Semitism".
BTW, I don't see the relevance of your comment "I think you are confused by the fake-version of how white liberals pretend to do 'diversity' ".
Hi Karim and Peter, Thank for for the most stimulating and insightful debate on the issue of racism. As a son of a Muslim Pakistani father and white Christian mother in England, I can really relate to what you have to say and the intellectual underpinnings with which you support your arguments. You also have an exceptional selection of guests that provide a breath of fresh from the well know white faces plastered over YouTube. Best Regards
Thanks! Great compliment!
There’s a provincialist element to race interaction in the U.S., and I don’t feel like I can give a fair comparison of racism here and what the Netherlands racial minorities must endure.
There’s a broad umbrella of anti-intellectualism here that shrouds the whole society, and this absolutely colors racism in America. I have known dozens of black students and coworkers who acknowledge the humanist underpinnings of socialist political philosophy, but don’t believe their roots and familial ties will accommodate the efficacy of the dogma.
My bias when I see an informed discussion about historic colonialism, and reactionary social norms, makes my cynicism rise. If lazy whites anywhere cannot or will not acknowledge the institutional biases and preferences that advantage them at the expense of many of their neighbors, I doubt that reasoned, impassioned argument will succeed in changing their thinking.
I am more encouraged by the mobilized global south, and the determination that they will have their sovereignty respected, as a forceful argument for westerners to get out of their warped minds.
I’m a big believer that no good can come of trying to legislate morality, and the Zionist effort to elevate criticism of Israel to the level of a crime, will fail miserably. But that whole charade is sure to cause pain and bloodshed, and not work to bring people closer together.
I was hoping to learn the Chinese word for a fake leftist that Peter mentioned but I couldn’t understand, even upon replaying the stream.
This was an incredibly good episode and i am only half way through. LOL
I watched your video the same day I read a very informative article on the Pan African Substack. The article is titled When will African scholars Decolonize Their Minds? I think it would be worth your interest to invite Femi on BettBeat Media sometime. I Have been reading him for the past year or two. If Substack will let me post the link, Femi’s Substack article is found at: https://open.substack.com/pub/femiakogun/p/when-will-african-scholars-decolonize?r=e3m1v&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
While I agree with most of the comments made in the discussion, I thought the Ruud Gullit example was pathetic.
The football supporters with blackened faces and the wigs were clearly NOT expressing any racist sentiment, on the contrary, they expressed their solidarity with their football hero.
Using this as a good example is merely an expression of Danny's wokism, and shows he has gone overboard with his sensitivity to racism.
In my opinion, this response is problematic. And let me explain to you why. It is not up to you, or anyone for that matter, to tell a person of color what they should, or should not experience as racism. The life experience of people like Danny, or myself, or any other person classified as "the other" in white spaces is very different than yours, and the effects of these things Danny classifies as racism is very different for him than for you.
You can reflect on that, try to be open and think "maybe by him these things are experienced very differently than by me", or you can still respectfully disagree, that is fine too. But to deem it "pathetic" and "woke" is something that I do not think will help us forward or build solidarity.
I agree that the term "pathetic" is misplaced because it places a judgment on his opinion, which I have no right to do. I apologize.
BTW, for the record, by ridiculing Gullit's not seeing as racist those faces painted black and the wigs, Danny put a judgment on Gullit in a similar fashion as my use of "pathetic", yet you seem to be OK with that.
I disagree that the term "woke" is misplaced. If I tell someone their stance is e.g. conservative or communist, they might not agree but they don't get upset about it. Why is it that "woke" is not allowed?
"The life experience of people like Danny, or myself, or any other person classified as "the other" in white spaces is very different than yours, and the effects of these things Danny classifies as racism is very different for him than for you."
, I suspected you would tell me something like that. While I agree that he sees and experiences racism differently than I do, it does not mean I cannot really assess racism, as you seem to imply.
You did not live through WW2 nor through the Algerian war of independence, and I am pretty sure you never experienced what the Gazans have been going through, yet you are perfectly able to assess the racist aspects of those events.
I do agree that I will never be able to really feel how Danny experiences racism, but that does not mean I have to agree with him.
You imply that his assessment of racism is superior to mine AND he is allowed to put a judgment on the racism assessment other people of color: to me that in and of itself is bigoted too, reverse racist.
I know that for people growing up in the toxic pool of the Netherlands it is hard to see the issue with white people doing blackface, as this has been normalized for ages. (In my opinion it is problematic in all cases.) That Ruud Gullit was okay with it, does not make it less racist. The 5 December Black Pete tradition shows how defensive we get when we are being called out on our racism. The white ego is like an angry child that kicks and screams, we cannot handle any criticism!
I have to admit, it is smart how all criticism of colonial/racist mentalities are now being dismissed as 'woke', as if anti-racism is government-propaganda coming from the political 'left'. Woke became the perfect discussion stopper to avoid any serious discussion on racism.
What people forget is that there is an important distinction between actual anti-racism and the fake hijacked version of 'diversity' that the system produces. So @ngungu don't put @kilianjacobsamar (Danny) in the same box as the fake version of the political left! So-called leftists within Western governments, universities and institution are just white liberal progressives who actually function as the gatekeepers of the system. The real historical left (communism/socialism) has been sidelined and silenced a long time ago.
Nothing wrong with Woke as it was originally meant. I love me some woke.
Yeah, indeed, as it was originally used it was a functional concept! I find it quite funny how people from the so-called corona-critical movement in the Netherlands refer to themselves in an equal manner as 'wakker' (awake). They claim to understand how corrupt the system is, yet when it comes to racism, they are still in a very, very deep sleep!
Ruud Gullit was okay with it because he realized those supporters did not mean it in a racist way but as a way to show their support, feeling 1 with him – remember "Je suis Charlie"?
If those supporters were racist, in addition to their black faces and the wigs, they would have expressed their racism in other ways too: did those guys do that?
My point is that anti-racism is and will always have to remain an essential, good part of a healthy society. Unfortunately, since Western society has been corrupted and concepts turned upside down (good = bad, slavery = freedom, genocide = normal, etc.), reality has become obfuscated, as a result of which anti-racism sometimes goes too far. There are those who see racism in everything à la "a Red under every bed".
Consider this: is anti-israelism/anti-zionism the same as anti-Jew racism? Of course not, but most Jews claim it is and thus they see anti-Jew racism everywhere.
This sums it up pretty much: "There are those who see racism in everything". Such a typical response! As if it is so normal and acceptable to have a serious discussion on racism in the Netherlands! As Danny said, they will make your life very difficult if you connect the dots and try to put racism on the table here. Again, I think you are confused by the fake-version of how white liberals pretend to do 'diversity', while in fact they react equally childish like right-wingers when you call them out on their racism.
In other words, you decide/Danny decides for Gullit how he should see the "racism" of the black faces and wigs. I note here that you have not answered my question about whether those guys expressed their racism in other ways, such as shouting racist slogans dagainst him during the game.
I also note that you sidestep the rest of my comment.
Nope, I am very aware of about racism, the real version that is, and I am also aware of the over-the-top racism awareness for which I mentioned the Jews as an example. In addition, their own real racism against and genocide of the Palestinians is a taboo subject that is now labelled as "anti-Semitism".
BTW, I don't see the relevance of your comment "I think you are confused by the fake-version of how white liberals pretend to do 'diversity' ".